[Spoilers] Rise of the Eldrazi set discussion

[browncoat]

(2010-04-02 17:58 PM)Ferridge Wrote:  Personally im looking forward to Gideon Jura for my UW controldeck and Lighthouse Chronologist for my casual mill deck.

Ill be interested to see the full list of the totem armours, I think they should see competitive play as Thrull Retainer was used historically.

Gideon seems to to be underrated as Star City is putting his pre-order price at $35 and it will probably go even higher (admittedly that is pretty disgusting for a card that has seen no tournament play). The lower priced (manawise) totem armors will probably be the better ones. Saving creatures from removal is fun especially with cards like aura gnarlid.

(2010-04-02 18:28 PM)Disturbedone0777 Wrote:  Eh, they are about the same in terms of costs if you look at it this way.
Let's assume the spell I"m casing is Eldrazzi and colorless.
With the Eye, it costs two less, and I could tap it to pay 1, so it's like having 3 mana towards the spell
With the Tem, it costs one less, but I could tap it to pay 2, so it's still having 3 mana towards the spell

So what about it makes it better then the eye? Since the eye has the added feature of Tutoring.

The eye lowers the cost by 2 but can't produce mana. The temple can tap for 1 colorless for anything or 2 colorless for eldrazi. The temple has the added bonus of being non-legendary so you can have multiples. The eye can tutor but being legendary and not able to tap for mana makes it worse. The eye is better when you cast multiple eldrazi in a turn but that would require a ton of mana so is less useful. And no neither can generate 3 mana.

[Disturbedone0777]

I didn't realize that the Eye didn't tap for Mana! Didn't catch that. Makes it less cool. Tutoring for 7 is an okay ability to have though. Still dont' know the rest of the Eldrazzi to say how useful it will honestly be. I find it really dumb they released a dead card for World Wake, and that card might not even be useful in ROE.

[browncoat]

Its not useless! It at least has a purpose in Urzatron. But that is as a 1-2 of. I think it may be a 1-2 of in any eldrazi deck due to mirror match and legendary. And if the deck becomes the next big deck then you will make your money back.


Edit: And Wizards continues to print overpowered cards for Eldrazi green. This time it is a Pelakka Wurm, a card that wrecks aggro when ramped into and cantrips when killed. Now they just have to reprint living wish to let eldrazi green run a wishboard and it would become the dominant deck.

[Dark Wolf]

What does everyone think of Transcendent Master and creatures with level-up in general? Personally I'm not sold on the Master because of how much mana he costs to be effective but anyone have a favorite level up guy?

[browncoat]

People will try to break the master but it is probably just a casual card, though it may have a place in multiplayer or EDH. Student of warfare is probably the best so far, a 3/3 first-strike for WW is pretty good (the fact that it can get bigger is merely a bonus). Kargan dragonlord will see play as a figure of destiny 2.0. I think the real place it will have an impact is limited where it is awesome.

[Ferridge]

I think they all look good cards, but unless the meta slows down alot i cant see them being played in standard. Its not going to worth someone time spending turns pumping them up to just watch them die to all the removal being used.

I think alot of people will add one or two to an EDH deck, as they look alot of fun.

[Dark Wolf]

I agree. I'm not really sold on Kargan Dragonlord at all. I don't think he's very good, but again I don't really know because I obviously haven't played with the card yet. I think the best leveler so far is Lord of Shatterskull Pass, but just as a card so far I like Echo Mage too. It'd be fun copying stuff with him. Is anyone seeing what I'm seeing when I say that I think Eldrazi Green may make a huge comeback in the Standard arena with some of the new cards coming out?

[browncoat]

The reason that the dragonlord is good is that it is permanent creature for RDW (something the deck has been lacking). The hype for it stems from the fact almost every aggro deck (and a few control decks) ran figure of destiny which is very similar. The problem with level up is that you can't assume that you will get the "god" effect. Cards like student of warfare are really good because for and investment of WW you get a 3/3 firstsriker that can be attacking. The Student will rarely be leveled up further unless you have nothing else to do with your mana. Cards like the lord of shatterskull pass are horrible until they are leveled an number of times and the effect you get for the investment is pretty weak.

[Dark Wolf]

I doubt you'll level the Lord of Shatterskull Pass more than once, which in essence is a 6/6 body for 5 mana. I wouldn't call that horrible. I wouldn't ever run Kargan Dragonlord I don't think. A friend of mine and I have been discussing this and concluded that leveling up as a sorcery includes so many different risks, particularly in Constructed, that it's not going to have anywhere near the effect Figure of Destiny had on the metagame when he could level up at instant speed.

[browncoat]

A 6/6 for 5 vanilla creature is pretty underwhelming. Why would you run that as opposed to siege-gang commander? The dragonlord is a fairly aggressively priced aggro creature and is easily comparable to figure of destiny (I happen to like it more). It will drop in price as it is over-hyped, only mono-red will/can run it making a bit worse the kithkin. I will agree that level up is pretty weak in standard as we currently know it but if we see the reprint of rituals or similar mana acceleration leveling may make more sense. It is hard to tell as we only know 95/249 cards making it difficult to speculate on the strength of decks post ROE.

[Dark Wolf]

Student of Warfare is a 3/3 first striker for WWW, not WW. You start at "level zero" for these guys. Regardless, it's still a good creature. I'm not saying that the dragonlord is useless, but I'm not sure if he'll make the cut in RDW. I'm building Blightning Deck Wins but I see too many things happening with him as you try to make him better. Example: It's my fourth turn. I play my Kargan Dragonlord, level him up twice, and pass the turn. My opponent is playing Boros Bushwhacker, and he plays a fetchland, cracks it, plays his land and attacks for 3 with Plated Geopede. I take the damage, and on my turn I play a Hellspark Elemental, and with the remaining 3 I pump my Dragonlord to a 4/4. My opponent can go in response, tap his last land, and Lightning Bolt my Dragonlord before he can do anything. That's the problem that I'm seeing, especially in RDW. The sorcery speed is going to have a greater effect than we realize.

[Disturbedone0777]

Just feel the need to say that at the moment the speed of standard won't make those big guys that cost a lot so nice. But much of that fun removal we all know and love so much is going to rotate out with Alara sometime at the end of the year. Could potentially change speed of the game. Or it could be that more removal is introduced and we have another heavy Aggro year.

[Ferridge]

The more I think about the cards that are spoiled, the more im on the fence if they will see constructed play or not. We could possibly find a good use for the lotus cobras, or a good green mana ramp / summoning trap deck. The Eldrazi could also give the UW Control a different choice instead of ramping into Iona.

Is there any cards or types of cards people are hopping the set to contain. Myself I was hopping for another good counter spell, but I think we have received the best blue is going to get for a while.

[Dark Wolf]

Wizards won't produce another decent counterspell for awhile in my opinion because bottom line is if they do it'll make all the dumbed down versions they've made of Counterspell obsolete. They've gone to a lot of trouble to make counterspells not only less powerful but also cheaper to use in exchange for power, which I don't like. A lot of people in R&D apparently decided that it would be best for the format and for players in general that counterspells got dumbed down significantly, with their main reason being that nobody likes to have their spells countered and 9 out of 10 people feels significantly more upset if their good creature or whatever it is gets targeted by a counterspell than when it dies say to Lightning Bolt. Thus, counterspells must be bad and therefore we aren't going to make them as good as they used to be because a significant part of the audience doesn't like them. Well....tough. A good part of the audience LOVES counterspells, myself included. I always loved when I first started with kitchen table Magic watching the look of triumph on my friend's face when he played his big fatties turn to dismay as I'd flip over a Cancel or Countersquall. Additionally, control decks have all but become obsolete. The UW control deck is good, but it isn't at the same time. It's good because it manages to be mostly effective with the bad card pool it has, but at the same time the cards for "control" these days are so bad it's a miracle it sees tournament play. Jace improved chances for control a ton, but that doesn't make it awesome. I think a good control deck could come back out, but I'll be the first to say that if Counterspell gets reprinted someday, I'll be back in the control camp, one of my favorites even as a rookie player.

I agree with Ferridge when he says that some of these cards, actually a lot of them, are kind of shaky as to whether they will see tournament play or if they'll be relegated to EDH, multiplayer, and kitchen table Magic. I would be sorry to see that happen, but I haven't see any level up guys that I would for sure use in any deck I have, and the Eldrazi to me hold no real danger to Standard as of right now because of the speed of nearly every deck in Standard. Perhaps with the release of the set there will be some new cards made to counter this weakness and make Eldrazi.dec all the rage, but I'm not putting faith in that at this point. Standard tournaments will remain mostly the same I think, with the tier one decks staying at their current popularity while Eldrazi try to make their way in. Overall, I don't think the format will change much, at least not for the first month or so while everyone absorbs the cards and figures out how to best use them. As for me, my favorite two cards are going to see some play in a new deck theory I'm working on. My favorite cards from the set so far are Khalni Hydra (still!) and Wall of Omens. That wall is stupid awesome!

[browncoat]

(2010-04-07 20:49 PM)Dark Wolf Wrote:  Student of Warfare is a 3/3 first striker for WWW, not WW. You start at "level zero" for these guys.

I realize that you start at level zero, I just did not realize that the abilities started at level 2 (not having level one listed is stupid).

(2010-04-07 20:49 PM)Dark Wolf Wrote:  Regardless, it's still a good creature. I'm not saying that the dragonlord is useless, but I'm not sure if he'll make the cut in RDW. I'm building Blightning Deck Wins but I see too many things happening with him as you try to make him better. Example: It's my fourth turn. I play my Kargan Dragonlord, level him up twice, and pass the turn. My opponent is playing Boros Bushwhacker, and he plays a fetchland, cracks it, plays his land and attacks for 3 with Plated Geopede. I take the damage, and on my turn I play a Hellspark Elemental, and with the remaining 3 I pump my Dragonlord to a 4/4. My opponent can go in response, tap his last land, and Lightning Bolt my Dragonlord before he can do anything. That's the problem that I'm seeing, especially in RDW. The sorcery speed is going to have a greater effect than we realize.

You play it turn 2. It is a bear that your opponent may waste removal on to keep it from being dangerous later, saving other threats you drop. You may not invest in it until the late game but you always have the option to boost it either when you have no other use for mana or start topdecking.

(2010-04-07 20:49 PM)Disturbedone0777 Wrote:  another heavy Aggro year.

[rant]The decks this season have been midrange! There is a difference[/rant]

(2010-04-07 21:21 PM)Dark Wolf Wrote:  Wizards won't produce another decent counterspell for awhile in my opinion because bottom line is if they do it'll make all the dumbed down versions they've made of Counterspell obsolete.

I predict that counterspell gets a reprint in m11 to slow down the format and to satisfy whiny control players.

(2010-04-07 21:21 PM)Dark Wolf Wrote:  I always loved when I first started with kitchen table Magic watching the look of triumph on my friend's face when he played his big fatties turn to dismay as I'd flip over a Cancel or Countersquall.

Countering a creature with a countersquall does not work unless there is some way to turn creatures into noncreature spells (I understand your point, just correcting a targeting problem).

(2010-04-07 21:21 PM)Dark Wolf Wrote:  I agree with Ferridge when he says that some of these cards, actually a lot of them, are kind of shaky as to whether they will see tournament play or if they'll be relegated to EDH, multiplayer, and kitchen table Magic. I would be sorry to see that happen, but I haven't see any level up guys that I would for sure use in any deck I have

But when you consider how much of a set is limited, casual, multiplayer, or bulk you get a large portion of most sets. It is rare that a majority of the cards in a set actually impact constructed. Most mechanics only get 1-2 playable cards. Sunburst? engineered explosives is the only playable card. Modular? arcbound ravager and arcbound worker are the only ones that see play. In Alara did any of the shards get a deck based around the mechanics except Exalted? Wizards does not really print many good cards for tournament play.

(2010-04-07 21:21 PM)Dark Wolf Wrote:  Standard tournaments will remain mostly the same I think, with the tier one decks staying at their current popularity while Eldrazi try to make their way in. Overall, I don't think the format will change much, at least not for the first month or so while everyone absorbs the cards and figures out how to best use them.

I will agree a lot of people will try to build around the Eldrazi but assuming the meta will remain the same is a bit silly. Jund will stick around until people have spent time testing. We still don't know enough of the set to generalize standard yet. Currently it looks like Eldrazi green is getting a huge boost but cards like recently spoiled Devour the Meek can wreck the elves, tokens and other cheap cards that the deck runs on. For all we know they are reprinting the power 9. I know this is not likely but printing a number of overly powerful cards that we cannot even imagine is easily possible. Assuming that standard will remain unchanged with the current amount of knowledge we possess it absurd.

(2010-04-07 21:21 PM)Dark Wolf Wrote:  Wall of Omens. That wall is stupid awesome!

Yay! Now we have to buy another playset of wall of blossoms!