Please Clarify how this works

[Disturbedone0777]

What it is
So there is a new combo around that has been used on me that doesn't make sense to me. The cards that are involved are Bazaar Trader and any of the red spells that temporarily give control of a creature to you instead of your opponent such as Act of Treason. What the opponent does is first play something like act of treason so that they gain control of the creature, then they tap Bazaar trader to give possession of the creature to you using the bazaar traders ability. After which they take control of the creature permanently, and often on turn 3 with this combo.

Why I don't believe this should work
Now often before I determine if a combo that I found works I sit and read the card text over to determine if the function I believe works the way that I believe it does. In this case the cards texts read for
Bazaar Trader
"Target player gains control of target, artifact, creature, or land you control."
Act of Treason
"Gain control of target creature until end of turn. Untap that creature. It gains haste until end of turn."

Now I was trying to think of similar instances when ownership of a creature comes into question. Such as if a player uses Rise from the Grave and takes a creature out of an opponents graveyard and that creature dies again whose graveyard does it go into? I don't personally know this since it hasn't really occurred to me but I was always under the belief that there is one true "owner" of a card when the game begins. That owner is the person that starts the game with the card.

So say the person casts act of treason (player a), ownership of the card is then transferred to them(player a), then they use bazaar traders ability to pass the creature back over to their opponent(player b).The way the game runs now is at the end of turn the player(player a) would permanently gain control of the creature. I ask why does this happen? The effect of Act of Treason does not state that you have to return the card to the original owner, but in fact says "Take control of creature until end of turn." So the turn ends, and you aren't in control of the creature, so you can't return it. In my opinion that would mean that the effect of the return has already happened. It has returned to it's owners control. Why does the effect pass the card back?

After Thoughts
I have never fine tooth combed the rules of magic, but is there somewhere in it that talks about the original owner of cards, and if there are conditions to change this in the game? Such as if I mind control something and it dies, who'se graveyard does it belond in, mine or my opponents? Also does this work different since control by mind control is done through enchantment and thus isn't permanent where as bazaar trader uses a permanent effect?

[browncoat]

How this works is:
1. you act of treason a creature your opponent controls
2. you then during that turn target yourself with bazaar trader's ability
3. gain permanent control of the creature

Both act of treason and bazaar trader create a control effect. While the act of treason end at the end of turn the trader's is indefinite and overwrites the first effect. If your opponent can't explain this clearly then call a judge (assuming you are in a tournament) who will probably give a warning and clarify how the combo works.

For the graveyard question (from the comprehensive rules):

404.1. A player’s graveyard is his or her discard pile. Any object that’s countered, discarded, destroyed,
or sacrificed is put on top of its owner’s graveyard, as is any instant or sorcery spell that’s finished
resolving. Each player’s graveyard starts out empty.

So if you take an opponents creature it returns to their graveyard.

[Alex]

This is a pretty nifty combo, and definitely one to watch out for.

I can't help thinking that Mark of Mutiny would work better, as you get the +1/+1 counter, or maybe I'm missing something.

[browncoat]

(2010-02-23 23:24 PM)Alex Wrote:  This is a pretty nifty combo, and definitely one to watch out for.

I can't help thinking that Mark of Mutiny would work better, as you get the +1/+1 counter, or maybe I'm missing something.

Especially if you can take their turn 2 leatherback baloth with the mark. Eldrazi green has no answer to a 5/6 that pops up on your turn 3. Sadly the trader dies immediately once your opponent realizes what you are trying to do.

[Disturbedone0777]

Mark of Mutiny works better yes. As I had said there are multiple cards that can do a similar thing. I've also seen it used in a blue/Red deck that the user would drop something like Mind Control, then the other player would eliminate the mind control so the user would use the Bazaar Trader's ability and keep the creature as well. It's a good combo without a doubt, i just still am a little fuzzy on possession on the board even after Browncoat's explanation. However, I can't argue with what is obviously working.

[browncoat]

The basic view of it is you have two control effects. The act of treason (or mark of mutiny or some similar card) creates a control effect that last until the end of turn. Bazaar trader creates an effect that lasts permanently. The permanent control effect overwrites the temporary effect.

[Disturbedone0777]

That makes more sense. Thank you for simplifying.

[Rich]

Suddenly I like my Bazaar Trader a lot more now...... I need to go fix my r/u deck....

[sherretz]

Trader is one of the combo cards I am expecting to see gain more traction as WWK ages. I think people will find other ways to make it great. Similar to how powerful people recently realized Sparkmage + Collar can be. Sniper? Yes please.


I feel a lot of people misread Trader as "target opponet gains control..." instead of "target player." I know that is how I first read the card. The only combo I could originally figure out with it was to trade Persecutor to my opponent once I had control of the game (and/or he was at negative life).

Assuming this little guy can stick around and you have some short term control readily handy, he's basically a free Mind Control.