WGR Allies

[valk]

I commented a bit in Dark Wolf's thread, and browncoat suggested to put mine up. So no hijack intended, this is what I have so far. Work in progress etc.

Oh, and you may note the lack of removal. I feel allies are better served having more ally casting options than on sniping. Also, it's as it stands. Need to put the multi and fetch lands back in (which I placed in a landfall deck I'm playing with and deciding between.)

"Swelling Ranks"
1x Talus Paladin (Hmm, should be two. Ditch Graypelt)
1x Ondu Cleric
1x Kazandu Blademaster
3x Hada Freeblade
1x Kabira Evangel
2x Tuktuk Scrapper
2x Highland Berserker
4x Akoum Battlesinger
1x Murasa Pyromancer
4x Graypelt Hunter
1x Haribaaz Druid
3x Arbor Elf << Placeholder until I get more Druids.
2x Joraga Bard
3x Vastwood Elementalist
1x Trailblazer's Boots
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Explorer's Scope

4x Join the Ranks

4x Seijiri Steppe (2 should be RW fetch)
4x Plains
2x Smouldering Spires
5x Mountains
2x Khalni Gardens
7x Forest

[Disturbedone0777]

Seeing as how this deck appears to be made up of cards you already have I don't know if I can offer anything in the way of advice. It currently seems to have that issue so many of my decks have at their conception, while it does a lot it doesn't do anything particularly well, besides playing allies. Most of the time with decks I tend to favor having more 4 of's so that I draw the cards I want more often. Your mana curve is also jagged with this deck, you are running a few cards that play two of a single color and I don't really see too much in the way of mana fixing. If the Arbor Elf is a place holder, I would recommend subing for bird of paradise instead as it can produce any color of mana and it costs the same. I don't particularly like the battlesingers as they don't grow with the other allies, not a fan of the Elementalists as most of the time with Ally decks I see only about 2-3 allies remaining in play for any kind of duration which isn't really that strong. I'm a wee bit confused as to why the bastilisk collar is in the deck, other then maybe as a placeholder as well? I am not a fan of the Jorga Bard strictly because of his mana cost. Vigilance is nice but not for 4 drop when you could be spending the same turn playing either Talus Paladin or GreyPelt hunter which to me are both worth more. Might I also recommend since you are playing Naya that you get the Naya based lands from Alara. I don't remember the Naya one but Jund plays savage lands.

[browncoat]

(2010-04-30 18:41 PM)Disturbedone0777 Wrote:  Might I also recommend since you are playing Naya that you get the Naya based lands from Alara. I don't remember the Naya one but Jund plays savage lands.

I agree. Jungle shrine would be a good idea.

(2010-04-30 18:41 PM)Disturbedone0777 Wrote:  Seeing as how this deck appears to be made up of cards you already have I don't know if I can offer anything in the way of advice. It currently seems to have that issue so many of my decks have at their conception, while it does a lot it doesn't do anything particularly well, besides playing allies. Most of the time with decks I tend to favor having more 4 of's so that I draw the cards I want more often. Your mana curve is also jagged with this deck, you are running a few cards that play two of a single color and I don't really see too much in the way of mana fixing. If the Arbor Elf is a place holder, I would recommend subing for bird of paradise instead as it can produce any color of mana and it costs the same. I don't particularly like the battlesingers as they don't grow with the other allies, not a fan of the Elementalists as most of the time with Ally decks I see only about 2-3 allies remaining in play for any kind of duration which isn't really that strong. I'm a wee bit confused as to why the bastilisk collar is in the deck, other then maybe as a placeholder as well? I am not a fan of the Jorga Bard strictly because of his mana cost. Vigilance is nice but not for 4 drop when you could be spending the same turn playing either Talus Paladin or GreyPelt hunter which to me are both worth more.

I also agree with this. Seeing your decklist is nice but you really need to round out playsets of cards. Commons should be cheap unless your local store is ripping you. Even the rare allies should be easy to get especially if you have trade fodder. I would be happy to trade you some of the cards you need (I know I have some allies, I don't know how many and which). The equipment seems out of place without stoneforge mystic. The other comment I would make is that you should not run the cipt lands in this deck. They do not produce a large enough effect to warrant the tempo loss. Terramorphic expanse/evolving wilds also would help fix your mana.

[valk]

Cheers for the advice. Will have to hunt down Jungle Shrine, that certainly would solve some issues. Just got 4 evolving wilds, so definate add as well. Both is good.

Going to keep either Seijiri steppes or Smouldering Spires, as they do hinder me a little but late game just one has often made a noticable difference. They're handy, just to break through any defenders to help finish. Maybe if I put in another defense-breaker/finisher then I'll opt out.

On the issue of Joraga Bard, that's most probably a good call. I think against certain weenie decks he will (and has) proved useful. The issue with them is they usually get the jump on me and late game, I can't afford to let them through while attacking. The bard hurts them the most, the removal they usually fling at any of the 'growing' allies, so I find him handy. I'll shift him to sideboard until I find a better sideboard way to deal with weenie. He just works nicely.
Same for tuktuk. Against some decks he's almost useless. So will sieboard them too, go for another talus paladin, another hada freeblade, and maybe two spells? 2xNaya Charm? (grave recover, removal or finisher attack?)

Will most probably use the card draw suggestion momentous fall, it should work well with the deck.

I can understand that they don't grow, but the battlesingers seem to perform so well and do a good chunk of my damage early. So most probably keep them. Will have to hunt down druids or birds. Equip suggestion noted. The explorer scope was there to try an avoid one killer issue, which is drawing a land when I want to keep my momentum up. ditching those gives me three more cards... Another pyromancer? Removal? boost?(groundswell?) Or maybe two more talus? 2x Orien-rief survivalist?

Thanks again for good quality feedback, will post altered list once constructed.

[Disturbedone0777]

I don't know if I would recommend keeping in the Jorga even in the sideboard. I would recommend if you are worried about weenies or even mass creatures, try playing Day of Judgement. It's global removal and normally solves the "too many enemies" problem. I don't know if I would bother with the battle singers, because even though they are good for you early game, they lose all their value if you draw them say turn 5 or 6. They become a dead card in your deck, which those cards are best to avoid. Oren Reif Survivalist is a four of in my allies decks for damn sure. Two drop growing ally. Be the perfect replacement for the Akoum Battlsingers. Removal is okay in allies decks but I find that you generally just want more allies.

[Dark Wolf]

Day of Judgment is not a good card for Ally decks. The whole point of Allies is to keep your creatures on the board and knock them to zero life, not sweep and start regrowing. If you do that, you run the risk of your Allies taking too long to grow, and your opponent will have enough mana out by that time to play something less than friendly, and likely something your still small Allies can't handle. I'm going to post the Naya Allies deck that has been running around, as I'm going to be trying it as another variation on Allies. I've tried W/G and U/W, with both being very effective and fun. However, Naya Allies is quite legit as a tier one deck, particularly in Magic Online, and I've heard it has a very solid Jund matchup and also does well against other decks in the current Standard.

[Deckbuilder]

I've seen a lot of RGW ally decks in other blogs that seem to be running a set up similar to this:

4 bloodbraid esf
4 battlesinger
4 hada freeblade
4 kazandu blademaster
4 Kabira evangel
4 oran-reif survivalist
4 haribaaz druid
2 ranger of eos
2 talus paladin
4 violent outburst
2 naya charm
+ lands

These decks seem to mostly be side boarding oblivion ring, scrappers, dauntless escort, and kor firewalker.

[Disturbedone0777]

I find it hard to believe that any deck that relies on it's creatures staying on the board would be able to fight Jund. You said that DOJ wouldn't be a good choice because of allies trying to keep their creatures on the board and not regrowing. Jund typically runs what? 4 Terminates, 3 Bit Blasts, 4 Lightening Bolts, 3 Maelstrom Pulses? That's removal throughout the whole deck. I wouldn't think that a deck relying on it's creatures coming out would be a good match against massive amounts of removal. If you manage to pull your kabira evangel and get protection from a color it will save you for a turn but Jund just throws up removal. Plus the cascading factor that often falls into a removal spell.

I don't know what I would suggest as removal in place of the DOJ though. It's the typical global removal that I use for white. I guess no global and just run things like O-rings to prevent too many power creatures, or power enchantments from coming out.

[browncoat]

Jund's removal suite normally contains 2 terminate though can have up to 4 (which is rare in more competitive lists). Bituminous blast has lost popularity with many people cutting it entirely or leaving 1-2 copies in. Jund should also have at least 2 deathmark which also hits most of the deck pretty hard. Kabira evangel won't help because you can play your removal in response hitting the evangel or other target before protection from black is added. I don't think mass removal is the solution with the new rise of control decks. If you really need the sweepers I would use pyroclasm or volcanic fallout. I do agree that oblivion ring should be maindecked as at least a 3-of. I also don't like the ranger of eos in deckbuilder's list as you don't have the targets for it (a playset of freeblades is not enough). Allies seems like an amusing concept but in a standard revolving around removal it just does not look as solid.

[Disturbedone0777]

It's really too bad since Allies is an interesting concept. I'm starting to veer away from trying to get a working build and seeing about working with these new leveling up creatures. I pulled a Guul Draz Assassin over the weekend. Awesome card in limited for damn sure. He must have won me most of my games this weekend. Honestly though every time I try to get a good solid allies build together it flops at some point. The closest thing I've had coming to an allies deck that functioned well was W/ U with it's awesome milling features, life gain, and the growth allies for damage. It's got a competitive feel to it, but it just doesn't have the efficiency that most tier 1 decks have these days.

[Dark Wolf]

I didn't include Halimar Excavator in my U/W build for Allies because I felt you're trying to make the deck do too much when you include him. Negate, Join the Ranks, Path to Exile, Aether Tradewinds, and Oblivion Ring all made fine spells for me to complement my Allies with. They remove creatures, counter removal spells your opponent tries to play, and give your Allies protection/bounce at instant speed. The deck has an OK matchup against Jund, but I've heard that the main reason Naya Allies is legit is because of its extremely solid Jund matchup. Jund apparently can't keep up with the deck's speed. I think I can understand this, as a Hada Freeblade and Kazandu Blademaster in conjunction with Akoum Battlesinger and Bloodbraid Elf seems pretty scary to me, and that's only 4 of the many other creatures in the deck.

[Deckbuilder]

The reason for the Rangers of eos is that if the opponent does get a board sweeper through you can still come out next turn with a 3/2 2/3 and 1/2

[valk]

On the idea of UW milldeck allies, I'd think keening stone should be able to give it a big assist over the line.

WGR 2.0 "Naya Colours Alliance"
27 creatures
3x Hada Freeblade W 0/1 allyfall: gains +1/+1
2x Ondu Cleric 1W 1/1 allyfall: gain life equal to allycount
2x Kabira Evangel 2W 2/3 allyfall: allies gain protection from a chosen colour
2x Talus Paladin 3W 2/3 allyfall: gains +1/+1, allies gain lifelink
2x Highland Berserker 1R 2/1 allyfall: allies gain first strike
4x Akoum Battlesinger 1R 1/1 haste allyfall: allies gain +1/+0
1x Murasa Pyromancer 4RR 3/4 allyfall: allycount damage to creature
4x Haribaaz Druid 1G 0/1 T: gain allycount of a single colour of mana
^(Currently own one and will use 3x explore in testing. May even take 4x explore if I find I like it.)
2x Oran Rief Survivalist 1G 1/1 allyfall: gains +1/+1
^(I have no placeholder that behaves similarly right now, so I'll run one blademaster and one more Hada Freeblade)
3x Vastwood Elementalist 2G 1/1 T: target land becomes a creature with power and toughness equal to allycount.
2x Graypelt Hunter 3G 2/2 trample allyfall: gains +1/+1

8 spells
4x Join the Ranks
2x Naya Charm
(going to maindeck 1x Marshal's anthem until I can get two charms.)
2x Splinter Twin

25 lands
4x Evolving Wilds
5x Plains (6x, courtesy of lack of oran rief as noted above)
4x Mountains
5x Forests (4x as noted above.)
4x Jungle Shrine
(1x arid mesa, 2xWG Zendi multi lands and 1xRG multi land as placeholder till I can get some shrines. Le sigh)
1x Smouldering Spires
2x Seijiri Steppes
(once I have 4 mana on the board, I tend to hold these and use them at the right time, they work nicely.)

Sideboard???
3x Tuktuk Scrapper
2x Marshal's Anthem
2x Traitorous Instinct << Baneslayer/Drana/BigFatty Countermeasure
3x Quest for Renewal
4x Emerge unscathed

Okay, took on the suggestions and looked at what I have and can get without too much expenditure. Joraga definately out in favour of trying quest for renewal, tuktuk out. Bulked out white a bit. Will have to trade/buy naya charm and a set of jungle shrines, 3 harabaz and 2 oran rief. Evolving wilds in. Elementalist continues in the games to be handy. He seems weaker, he often is weaker, but other times he's a strong character. He can be cast late or early and his performance stays about the same. I might try changing him for blademasters in some games and giving the mana base more white and seeing how that goes as the blademaster is cool and seems to have a following.
Splinter twin looks like a great enchant for allies as it can act as a trigger without the need to overplay your hand as well as opponents turn trigger, and provide some continuous attack. Notably useful on evangel, battlesinger, pyromancer, tuktuk in certain situations and ondu cleric. This will be one of my next playtesting focus when I get time, using this and making sure I learn how to play the naya charms to best effect.
Quest for renewal is sideboarded, I'll try it to see if it helps do what the bard did, but better.

The removal discussion is valid. Maelstrom pulse worries me a bit as often I'll hit two of an ally on the board and so I'm also looking at sideboarding the 2x splinter twin, 1x Smouldering Spires and 1xElementalist for emerge unscathed (a great way to dodge a bullet, provide additional defense during their turn but for one mana it's added bonus is it also supplies a pretty good defense breaker for when you attack. So you don't lose card advantage and still get a great bonus for next turn. Already used it in my wallsculptor deck. It's a great little card.)

I have no ranger of eos, so i'll let that one go. The idea is very tempting though.

Sidenote: I love playing this deck, hence my wanting to make a decent standard deck out of it. But I threw together in a half hour a WU deck dubbed "wallsculptor" which is defenders, hada spy patrol, distortion strike, goliath sphinx and jace mindsculptor. It performed much better over it's 8 games. Something about that annoyed me...

[Disturbedone0777]

The reason I still run the milling ally is how stupid he can be at getting rid of pesky cards in decks. I'm not trying to mill out my opponent but I'm trying to run a good number of allies and she has a realitively low cost. It doesn't hurt that from time to time Ill watch my opponents combo cards or neccsary kill cards hit the graveyard before he can draw them. The excavator may make the deck seem like it's trying to do to much, but she's not in there for milling, just a bonus. She is really there to add allies to the deck.

[gonexhaywire]

Ok, no offense, but out of all of these comments, just about one of you have it right.

Whoever said Akoum battlesingers aren't any good, ARE YOU KIDDING?!?! Those are game winners. I can't tell you how many times I've won because I had those. They have haste, they're a two drop, so what if they don't get counters, they still give ALL your allies and additional +1 on top of the counter they get from the ally drop.

Next, what's the best card that's Green and Red? Uhh, Bloodbraid Elf. Play it, and 8 times out of 10 you'll get an additional ally drop.

Now, the best one drop in allies, Hada Freeblade, and you're not running four? That's not even an ally deck then.

You definitely need to get some Oran-Rief Survivalist going in there, they're not near as good as Kazandu Blademaster, but are much much easier to cast early.

Now, what is the ally that can stand up to a Baneslayer if played right? Kazandu Blademaster, the best uncommon in the Zendikar block. This is once again a must of 4.

Onto the next fault lol, Kabira Evangel. Why two?!?!? HELLO ALPHA STRIKE! That is basically your key game winning card in allies. YOU NEED 4! You have three out of the field, hey, what do you know, protection from three colors. Dang. seems good now, huh?

Talus Paladin, he's a late drop Ally, so, running 4 isn't necessarily needed (in my opinion). So, having two is perfectly fine. TAKE OUT THE ONDU CLERIC. That along with Talus isn't necessary, life gain isn't usually needed, as for it is just about, if not, the fastest aggro deck in Standard.

Spells, take out splinter twins it's too much to use, and you don't want to be tapping allies, unless it is harabaz druid, the point of the deck is to swing away. You need violent outburst, it will fall into a better ally with the cascade, and it is at instant speed, hey if you have a Kabira Evangel, PROTECTION! You're going to need a bit of creature control just so you can get through some of their tough guys (if they have them) so you should run Paths only two though as it also takes away from cascading into them in an unwanted situation. Naya charms are rad, but, someone said to bring back someone from the grave, nah, use it for it's last ability when they have an equally huge army of creatures, or just two GIANT creatures.

You can also think about putting in some Planeswalkers, just in case you get into late game, which shouldn't happen, a good few choices would be between: Sarkhan Vol give ALL CREATURES +1 +1 AND haste that's always nice. Ajani Vengeant - ability gives you a bit of creature control as well as delivering that possible last bit of damage to the face for win. And hey, if you can, BLOW ALL THEIR MANA UP! Really fuck em up. And, lastly, Ajani Goldmane, only because he gives out +1 +1 counters for a couple turns is quit nice, but doesn't seem to help incredibly much as for his main ability doesn't help too much with the deck.

Lands, this is a very creature heavy deck, why don't I see anyone suggesting Ancient Ziggurat? That's a key land to this. Depending on if you choose from 2 to three spells you should run 3 to four Ziggurat. Jungle shrine is a beast of a land, it gives you your mana base instantly so you don't get mana screwed. If you have Jungle Shrine and Ziggurat you really only need 1 forest, you'll find yourself not needing more to cast anything. Duel lands, you need 'em. Pick up some Sun Petal Grove instantly those are a key land to get your mana base out. Finally, man lands, you need at least 2, definitely three stirring wild wood, if you do get DoJ and all your stuff is gone, you still have these 3/4 attackers, and, they have reach for those pesky fliers!

Sideboard! What's your worst nightmare for this deck? Day of Judgment. Well guess who is your savior for that? Dauntless Escort. That is a sideboard MUST for allies. Sac em when they DoJ, which if they see him out they won't even touch their DoJ. Oblivion rings, Firewalkers, whatever else you want is fine, as long as you have the above.

The whole point of Naya Allies is to take them out as fast as possible with your growing allies. There shouldn't be any late game with this deck, unless you play sloppily. So you really shouldn't have a single 5 drop card in the deck. Personally it is one of the best decks out there because it doesn't cost an arm and a leg, but, puts up one hell of a fight. I have personally beaten every top deck at least once if not many. Jund rarely beats me anymore with my new additions.

I have a few additions to my Naya Allies that gives it a real competitive curve, but I'm waiting to reveal it so not everyone will be on the bandwagon.

I hope you take the time to read this, because if you do, you'll have a real competitive deck in your hands, instead of the garbage you've added to it now.