(Extended) Mono Red Dragonstorm

[Xanamir]

Hello all.

So, after playing a lot of casual for years and years, I finally decided to try my hand at playing extended. I'll be going to my first tournament in a few weeks and wanted to get some opinions on my deck list, see if there's any tweaks anybody can suggest.

Mono Red Dragonstorm Combo

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

4 Dragonstorm
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet

4 Lotus Bloom

20 Mountain

Sideboard:

4 Blood Moon
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Fire Spout
2 Dead//Gone
3 Shattering Spree

Pretty much your basic Dragonstorm here, accelerate into a good storm count as quickly as possible and burn my opponent to death with dragon-y awesome. After a lot of proxying with different builds, I've found that going heavy on the mana acceleration means I'll have more consistent opening hands, which helps since my ability to manipulate my draw is pretty limited, which I know can be dangerous for combos. Hopefully, the scry effect on Magma Jet will help with that somewhat.

I've gone back and forth on whether to go with Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon in the main deck; currently, I'm going Magus because it can function as a blocker in a pinch, and the deck is fast enough (hopefully) that I don't need him out all -that- long... if he can slow my opponent down for even a couple turns, it should be enough. Blood Moon's in the sideboard, however, in the event that I encounter too much creature removal.

My sideboard is tuned to the suggestions of a group I play with during FNM... Tarmogyf and Zoo are the names I keep hearing about. One alteration I'd like to make is Chalice of the Void, if I can ever find them.

Anyway, let me know what you all think and if there's anything I can do to make my deck better! Thanks!

[browncoat]

I think that you can remove one of magus of the moons and one Karrthus. Otherwise you list is pretty standard except for being mono-red as opposed to the standard u/r.

Do you have a reason for not running any storage lands? Why do you have the sideboarded dead/gone?

[Xanamir]

(2010-02-02 14:12 PM)browncoat Wrote:  I think that you can remove one of magus of the moons and one Karrthus. Otherwise you list is pretty standard except for being mono-red as opposed to the standard u/r.

Do you have a reason for not running any storage lands? Why do you have the sideboarded dead/gone?

Yeah, I've been thinking about dropping Karrthus back to one. He's great to pull out with Dragonstorm, since it means I can pretty much win on a storm count of 2 when I pull off the combo, but he's not so important that I'm worried about losing the game if I draw him into my hand.

Dead/Gone is in the sideboard because, although it's not a particularly amazing card, it has the effect of bouncing an enemy creature back to their hand, which is a control effect that you don't see too often in red, and in my opinion, can be pretty useful. It also comes with the cheap burn, making it a versatile (and thus useful) sideboard option.

The reason I'm not running any storage lands is because I intend on having either Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon out early in almost every game, thus, any of those non-basic lands would pretty much be changed into mountains and thus lose the reason for including them, which wouldn't exactly hurt me (since I'm mono-red) but still seemed like it might be more trouble than it's worth.

I'm thinking I might take your advice on the Karrthus and Magus though, and maybe up Magma Jet to four? I really think the library manipulation of the scry effect can be a lifesaver in a combo deck.

[Alex]

I'd reduce Karrthus to one copy, too. Although it's not the worst card to draw, the plan is to go off ASAP and drawing a Karrthus doesn't really help in any way. Magma Jet looks good in this deck, and the Magus/Blood Moon is like the Spanish Inquisition (nobody expects...).

[Xanamir]

(2010-02-07 19:43 PM)Alex Wrote:  I'd reduce Karrthus to one copy, too. Although it's not the worst card to draw, the plan is to go off ASAP and drawing a Karrthus doesn't really help in any way. Magma Jet looks good in this deck, and the Magus/Blood Moon is like the Spanish Inquisition (nobody expects...).

Wow, Alex, thanks for talking about my deck in DC 58! It was quite excellent coming back from the PTQ in San Diego to see my deck list mentioned on the main site when I checked for an update!

I ended up taking your suggestions and swapped out a Karrthus for a Magma Jet. It turned out to be an excellent suggestion, as Magma Jet proved to be my surprise MVP over the course of the PTQ, helping me combo out more quickly and keeping my dragons safely tucked away at the bottom of the deck.

The deck performed quite well (in my opinion!) at the San Diego PTQ... I ended up going 4 wins, 4 losses which I thought was pretty respectable being that it was my first time playing in Extended and also running an unorthodox choice like Dragonstorm.

The deck absolutely demolished all but one of the Zoo decks I came across, and only because in that game, my opponent managed to Thoughtseize me repeatedly, which killed off any chance of getting my combo off. It did quite well against the other Zoo decks, however, and Magus/Blood Moon locked out my opponents entirely in a couple of games, which combined with the ability to neutralize Tarmogyf quickly with Magma Jets and Lightning Bolts made it go that much better.

Interestingly, I didn't see any Dark Depths in my match ups, although talking to people around me, it seemed like there were quite a few of them. I also lost to Hypergenesis... I was usually going off by turn 4 or 5 throughout the day, while he managed to get Progenitus out on turn 3. I also lost to All In Red, although the All In Red player managed to get an insanely good opening hand in both of his games, and managed to get 8 1/1 Goblin tokens into play on turn 1 with Empty the Warrens and Rite of Flames.

Other than that, however, the deck did really well. It was a thrill to play and the experience of pulling off the Dragonstorm combo was amazing! The first time I started playing my rituals, the look on my opponent's face was priceless when I laid down 4 Bogardans and Karrthus all on one turn (not that Karrthus was needed at that point!) Nobody expected to see something like that in an Extended PTQ!

I'm going to be tweaking the deck a little more, including moving Magma Jet up to 4 and dropping Lightning Bolt to 3, because, as I said, it was an amazingly good spell for me. I'm also probably going to move Blood Moon into the main deck, like you mentioned in the show, and drop Magus entirely, since it ended up being redundant to have both in the deck. I'm still looking to add Chalice of the Void, since that would be a great counter to Hypergenesis, but it's tough to justify spending $80 or more on a playset for a card that's going to rotate out in October (unless it gets reprinted, which would then drop the price.)

Anyway, thanks again for talking about the deck on the show!

[Alex]

Hey, no worries. It's a great version of Dragonstorm.

Thanks for the report from your PTQ. The repeated Thoughtseize was tough, although not completely surprising as there's a lot of combo in Extended right now. The Zoo player probably had them for Depths or Hypergenesis and they just happen to be good against Dragonstorm. The All-In-Red was nasty, too, and someone actually did a similar thing to me in Legacy last weekend (12 Goblins on Turn 2).

I think I'm also going to move Magma Jet up to 4 copies and Bolt down to 3. The Jet is awesome for digging for that last card you need - it's essentially like a fiery Top in this deck.

Chalice would definitely improve the deck's chances from the board, especially because you can use the ritual spells to get a Chalice for whatever you need early. I don't know if you play Legacy or plan to, but Chalice is used quite a lot there, so it wouldn't be a horrible investment. If nothing else, just sell or trade them away to a Legacy player.

[Xanamir]

Hey, just listened to the most recent episode of DC and wow, can I just say that it was really freaking cool to hear about my deck (well, not that I can call Dragonstorm "mine," but you know what I mean) being played in a PTQ across the pond as it were. Seriously, it was cool.

Sorry to hear that the deck didn't go off as much as you were hoping... I noticed the same problem in a couple of my games where I sideboarded and didn't draw a single side board card. I'm not sure if it's the nature of playing combo or if we're just both equally unlucky in that regard.

I also agree with your assessment in the show... even though the mana acceleration is crazy, the deck NEEDS more drawing power. I'm not really sure how to do that and stay mono-red (maybe some artifact drawing cards, I don't know) but it does need to happen. I think the Desperate Ritual can probably be dropped... it's good for the storm count, but it's a pretty weak card and is a contributing factor towards what makes the deck slower (basically, you get into those situations where you're swimming in Desperate Rituals that just don't quite add up to nine).

Anyway, those are just my thoughts after listening to the show. Again, it was awesome to hear your PTQ report and sorry that it didn't play as well as you'd hoped. I trust it was still an awesome moment the first time you laid down the combo, though (I know that it made my pulse quicken when I pulled it off and saw my opponent's reaction!)

[ronnung]

(2010-02-02 05:26 AM)Xanamir Wrote:  Hello all.

So, after playing a lot of casual for years and years, I finally decided to try my hand at playing extended. I'll be going to my first tournament in a few weeks and wanted to get some opinions on my deck list, see if there's any tweaks anybody can suggest.

Mono Red Dragonstorm Combo

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

4 Dragonstorm
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet

4 Lotus Bloom

20 Mountain

Sideboard:

4 Blood Moon
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Fire Spout
2 Dead//Gone
3 Shattering Spree

Pretty much your basic Dragonstorm here, accelerate into a good storm count as quickly as possible and burn my opponent to death with dragon-y awesome. After a lot of proxying with different builds, I've found that going heavy on the mana acceleration means I'll have more consistent opening hands, which helps since my ability to manipulate my draw is pretty limited, which I know can be dangerous for combos. Hopefully, the scry effect on Magma Jet will help with that somewhat.

I've gone back and forth on whether to go with Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon in the main deck; currently, I'm going Magus because it can function as a blocker in a pinch, and the deck is fast enough (hopefully) that I don't need him out all -that- long... if he can slow my opponent down for even a couple turns, it should be enough. Blood Moon's in the sideboard, however, in the event that I encounter too much creature removal.

My sideboard is tuned to the suggestions of a group I play with during FNM... Tarmogyf and Zoo are the names I keep hearing about. One alteration I'd like to make is Chalice of the Void, if I can ever find them.

Anyway, let me know what you all think and if there's anything I can do to make my deck better! Thanks!

Hello, I was just wondering how this deck faired in the last few months? Did you make any revisions? I was looking at my old dragonstorm deck and it needs a make over bad (like 4 years old...). I made a rough draft of a new dragonstorm deck, anyways I was wondering if you could take a look at it some time. Thx.. Oh btw this deck is just for casual play more then anything, I think It might be legacy legal, from the list I checked, but I'm not sure, any input would be appreciated.
4 Dragon mage
4 bogardan hellkite
1 karrthus, tyrant of jund
1 zirilan of the claw

4 burning wish
4 dragonstorm
4 rite of flame
4 seething song

4 magma jet
4 sensei divining top

4 lotus bloom
4 lotus petals own

2 boseiju, who shelters all allows for non countering
16 mountains own

sry haven't work out the side board yet.

[browncoat]

That is legacy legal with zirilan of the claw, lotus petal, burning wish, and dragon mage. If you want to use burning wish you really need to build you sideboard (or wishboard in this case) alongside the deck. You want one copy of dragonstorm in the board to tutor for as well as at least a seething song. Then you can put whatever tech or hate you want to fill out the board. I don't see much point running zirilan or dragon mage. Zirilan suffers from not being a dragon (he is a viashino shaman) and seems a bit pricey for the limited dragonstorm effect. Dragon mage only seems useful if your opponent is comboing off next turn and forcing him to pitch his hand ruins his plans, if your opponent is out of gas you either accelerate him or give him seven cards to find an answer to your dragons. If you really need more dragonstorm targets you could use hunted dragon.

For your manabase I would remove the boseiju, who shelters all and use simian spirit guides and chrome moxen alongside crystal vein/ancient tomb/city of traitors to be able to potentially go off turn 1.

The real problem I see with dragonstorm as a legacy legal deck is that it needs to generate storm and mana quickly without having the hate to get around counters. When compared to belcher (the most similar deck to it in legacy), dragonstorm has to generate more mana and can't abuse cards like lion's eye diamond to get there.

[ronnung]

(2010-05-23 13:15 PM)browncoat Wrote:  That is legacy legal with zirilan of the claw, lotus petal, burning wish, and dragon mage. If you want to use burning wish you really need to build you sideboard (or wishboard in this case) alongside the deck. You want one copy of dragonstorm in the board to tutor for as well as at least a seething song. Then you can put whatever tech or hate you want to fill out the board. I don't see much point running zirilan or dragon mage. Zirilan suffers from not being a dragon (he is a viashino shaman) and seems a bit pricey for the limited dragonstorm effect. Dragon mage only seems useful if your opponent is comboing off next turn and forcing him to pitch his hand ruins his plans, if your opponent is out of gas you either accelerate him or give him seven cards to find an answer to your dragons. If you really need more dragonstorm targets you could use hunted dragon.

For your manabase I would remove the boseiju, who shelters all and use simian spirit guides and chrome moxen alongside crystal vein/ancient tomb/city of traitors to be able to potentially go off turn 1.

The real problem I see with dragonstorm as a legacy legal deck is that it needs to generate storm and mana quickly without having the hate to get around counters. When compared to belcher (the most similar deck to it in legacy), dragonstorm has to generate more mana and can't abuse cards like lion's eye diamond to get there.

I think mana wise dragonstorm probably isn't the best deck to build around, as mentioned above, ds takes a inordinate amount of mana to pull off turn one. And unless protected by blue or something else it is very vulnerable to being countered. But, I guess this deck would be more for casual play than tournament play. That being said, I would maybe switch dragons mages for hellkite chargers or thunder dragons for some protection against weeney decks. so maybe like 3 bogardan hellkite
1 karrthus, 3 thunder dragons, and 2 hellkite chargers.

I was trying to avoid heavy non basic lands, to make the deck simplier. But I do like the suggestion and will probably end up using a bunch of non basic lands.

I was also thinking of adding the belcher on the sideboard.

Do you think adding serum powders would be worth adding to help ds proc more?

Thanks again for any tips you might have.

[browncoat]

I think that you want 4 bogardan hellkites as you can kill your opponent and having the largest possible number in your library to pull out with dragonstorm. I think you would rather have hunted dragon over hellkite charger as the extra power can make the difference between winning the turn you go off and having to pass the turn and risk mass removal. Hunted dragon also has the advantage that is has the converted mana-cost of 5 which allows you to accelerate it out with seething song. Thunder dragon seems amusing but they are a bit pricey (if you have them then they are not too bad). You may be running a few too many dragons, I am not an expert on dragonstorm so you may want Xanamir or Alex to give you a better idea of the number to run.

I will admit that I am not a fan of serum powder. Removing rituals or dragons from your deck seems fairly risky. But if you think they help the deck then that is your choice.

[ronnung]

(2010-05-23 13:15 PM)browncoat Wrote:  That is legacy legal with zirilan of the claw, lotus petal, burning wish, and dragon mage. If you want to use burning wish you really need to build you sideboard (or wishboard in this case) alongside the deck. You want one copy of dragonstorm in the board to tutor for as well as at least a seething song. Then you can put whatever tech or hate you want to fill out the board. I don't see much point running zirilan or dragon mage. Zirilan suffers from not being a dragon (he is a viashino shaman) and seems a bit pricey for the limited dragonstorm effect. Dragon mage only seems useful if your opponent is comboing off next turn and forcing him to pitch his hand ruins his plans, if your opponent is out of gas you either accelerate him or give him seven cards to find an answer to your dragons. If you really need more dragonstorm targets you could use hunted dragon.

For your manabase I would remove the boseiju, who shelters all and use simian spirit guides and chrome moxen alongside crystal vein/ancient tomb/city of traitors to be able to potentially go off turn 1.

The real problem I see with dragonstorm as a legacy legal deck is that it needs to generate storm and mana quickly without having the hate to get around counters. When compared to belcher (the most similar deck to it in legacy), dragonstorm has to generate more mana and can't abuse cards like lion's eye diamond to get there.

I think mana wise dragonstorm probably isn't the best deck to build around, as mentioned above, ds takes a inordinate amount of mana to pull off turn one. And unless protected by blue or something else it is very vulnerable to being countered. But, I guess this deck would be more for casual play than tournament play. That being said, I would maybe switch dragons mages for hellkite chargers or thunder dragons for some protection against weeney decks. so maybe like 3 bogardan hellkite
1 karrthus, 3 thunder dragons, and 2 hellkite chargers.

I was trying to avoid heavy non basic lands, to make the deck simplier. But I do like the suggestion and will probably end up using a bunch of non basic lands.

I was also thinking of adding the belcher on the sideboard.

Do you think adding serum powders would be worth adding to help ds proc more?

Thanks again for any tips you might have.

[Xanamir]

Dragonstorm in legacy? Well, the thought has certainly been on my mind lately, especially since, if Seething Song doesn't get reprinted in M11 or whatever the new Mirrodin block will be called, it's going to rotate out and based on my experience, Seething Song is THE ritual spell that makes Dragonstorm work.

You really want to trim the number of dragons you have in the deck... I actually started with 9, and found that they just clog things up, either by having one or two show up in my starting hand or in my first few draws. Since the mono-red variant doesn't have the same ability to sculpt the draws the way the Blue-Red version does, it's incredibly damaging when you draw a dragon in hand, since that's one more turn before you can combo off. I would recommend no more than 5 dragons as an absolute rule; it's a good number in case you do happen to draw one in hand, you still have plenty in your deck to look for when the Dragonstorm hits the table.

As far as dragons go, you absolutely want to pick cards that will kill your opponent instantly. My two favorites for this goal are Bogarden Hellkite (obvious pick, I know) and Kokusho, the Evening Star. Kokusho is a little more dangerous to use, but also quite hilarious, since you're basically using the Legendary rule to guarantee your win with him. (All four copies of the card hit the table at the same time and cancel each other out, triggering his ability to win you the game.) Downside of Kokusho is that you can't hardcast him in a pinch if he's in your hand and if your initial combo doesn't kill the opponent, your dragons just annihilated themselves which leaves you nothing to swing with.

While other dragons might be fun to play, you don't really want to have to rely on attacking with them (even hasted with Karrthus) to win you the game since that means giving your opponent a chance to respond, either through targeted removal, a blocker or two, or whatever.

So, right away, Dragon Mage should be out, ditto the Zirilan of the Claw, since the focus here isn't just "get dragons out" but "get a high enough storm count for Dragonstorm to win instantly."

Burning Wish is an interesting idea, but I don't really see its use here over including more mana generation. If it functioned like a tutor and dug into your deck, it'd be amazing, but to make it work here, you'd have to keep a copy of Dragonstorm out of your deck (which might work, but then you're left with three dead copies of Burning Wish in your deck.) I think the slot would be better served with Simian Spirit Guide or Chrome Mox. I'm personally a bigger fan of Chrome Mox than Lotus Petal since Chrome Mox can generate more mana for you in the long run, but I've also never tried to run the deck using Lotus Petal, so that could just be my bias.

Sensei's Diving Top is a really good card for this deck, though. Man, I wish it wasn't banned in Extended; I'd run it myself in a heartbeat.

I'd also drop Boseiju, like Browncoat suggested. It's nice in theory, but since the Dragonstorm combo involves playing four to five cards in a single turn, your Boseiju will only be able to protect 1 of them, and an opponent with a counterspell ready will just disrupt whatever ritual you don't pay for using Boseiju.

So, if we drop Dragon Mage, Zirilan, and Burning Wish, that gives us 9 slots for cards. If you're dedicated on keeping the deck mono-red, you can use this to grab some Lightning Bolts or some other cards to help you deal with threats, such as Firespout to use as a board sweeper.

Hopefully this helps and apologies for making it all so damn long to read!

[browncoat]

Seething song was reprinted in 9th so it should be legal for another year (maybe 2 I can't remember how wizards rotates core sets out in extended).

I will admit that I thought seething song was a sorcery so you could tutor it out with burning wish. I am not sure that being copies 4-7 of dragonstorm that require additional mana is worth it then. Burning wish still allows for a more flexible deck though and allows you to have an alternate win condition in empty the warrens.

[ronnung]

(2010-05-24 05:46 AM)Xanamir Wrote:  Dragonstorm in legacy? Well, the thought has certainly been on my mind lately, especially since, if Seething Song doesn't get reprinted in M11 or whatever the new Mirrodin block will be called, it's going to rotate out and based on my experience, Seething Song is THE ritual spell that makes Dragonstorm work.

You really want to trim the number of dragons you have in the deck... I actually started with 9, and found that they just clog things up, either by having one or two show up in my starting hand or in my first few draws. Since the mono-red variant doesn't have the same ability to sculpt the draws the way the Blue-Red version does, it's incredibly damaging when you draw a dragon in hand, since that's one more turn before you can combo off. I would recommend no more than 5 dragons as an absolute rule; it's a good number in case you do happen to draw one in hand, you still have plenty in your deck to look for when the Dragonstorm hits the table.

As far as dragons go, you absolutely want to pick cards that will kill your opponent instantly. My two favorites for this goal are Bogarden Hellkite (obvious pick, I know) and Kokusho, the Evening Star. Kokusho is a little more dangerous to use, but also quite hilarious, since you're basically using the Legendary rule to guarantee your win with him. (All four copies of the card hit the table at the same time and cancel each other out, triggering his ability to win you the game.) Downside of Kokusho is that you can't hardcast him in a pinch if he's in your hand and if your initial combo doesn't kill the opponent, your dragons just annihilated themselves which leaves you nothing to swing with.

While other dragons might be fun to play, you don't really want to have to rely on attacking with them (even hasted with Karrthus) to win you the game since that means giving your opponent a chance to respond, either through targeted removal, a blocker or two, or whatever.

So, right away, Dragon Mage should be out, ditto the Zirilan of the Claw, since the focus here isn't just "get dragons out" but "get a high enough storm count for Dragonstorm to win instantly."

Burning Wish is an interesting idea, but I don't really see its use here over including more mana generation. If it functioned like a tutor and dug into your deck, it'd be amazing, but to make it work here, you'd have to keep a copy of Dragonstorm out of your deck (which might work, but then you're left with three dead copies of Burning Wish in your deck.) I think the slot would be better served with Simian Spirit Guide or Chrome Mox. I'm personally a bigger fan of Chrome Mox than Lotus Petal since Chrome Mox can generate more mana for you in the long run, but I've also never tried to run the deck using Lotus Petal, so that could just be my bias.

Sensei's Diving Top is a really good card for this deck, though. Man, I wish it wasn't banned in Extended; I'd run it myself in a heartbeat.

I'd also drop Boseiju, like Browncoat suggested. It's nice in theory, but since the Dragonstorm combo involves playing four to five cards in a single turn, your Boseiju will only be able to protect 1 of them, and an opponent with a counterspell ready will just disrupt whatever ritual you don't pay for using Boseiju.

So, if we drop Dragon Mage, Zirilan, and Burning Wish, that gives us 9 slots for cards. If you're dedicated on keeping the deck mono-red, you can use this to grab some Lightning Bolts or some other cards to help you deal with threats, such as Firespout to use as a board sweeper.

Hopefully this helps and apologies for making it all so damn long to read!

Thank you for the input. I wonder if five dragons is enough. My only concern is if you draw two of the dragons on first turn, that would only allow for 3 dragons to pull out with dragon storm. Although I guess that would be more than enough to kill some one, through turns 2-5. I wonder if using 6 or seven dragons would be pushing it. I enjoy the kokusho idea, that would be a hell of a killing blow or effect If only they were red. I guess I put the dragon mages in for non killing reasons. Say you don't have a dragonstorm turn one or two but have a dragon mage. If you can pull him out fast enough and attack with him you get to reload your hand and make the other player discard. On the downside this could help the other player. I was also looking to make this a combo with burning wish, if I can find any red sorcery card that have a recall effect.(but I don't know of any at this point and I would probably have to go black or blue for that)

I guess I am ultimately looking for a side combo to work off the dragonstorm as a just incase I can't kill you with dragonsorm I can hardcast a dragon or two and take you out. I guess adding a belcher or two might do that, Adding fling might also do that.

Do you think building a side board of sorceries to draw from with burning wish along with a dragonstorm would validate using two or three burning wishes in this deck? Then you can pull out a variety of sorceries depending on the situation, boardsweepers, and cheap kill sorceries.

Thank you again for any input.